Ceasar Cordon is the outside business development director at Fifth Gear Automotive in North Texas. He entered the automotive industry in 2017 after working in electronics and gained experience in shop management and service advising before moving into business development. At Fifth Gear, he leads a team that builds referral relationships with other repair shops, a channel he says influences approximately 35% of the organization’s revenue. His perspective on auto repair shop expansion combines customer service experience with the practical work of reaching new markets.

In this episode…

Reaching customers in another city does not always require building another repair shop. Fifth Gear Automotive uses satellite service centers to establish a local presence while sending vehicles to existing shops for the actual work.

Cordon describes permitting barriers in North Texas that made traditional expansion difficult. The company borrowed the operating model of a dry cleaner: customers use a convenient local storefront, and the service happens elsewhere. Customers also arrange vehicle pickup through these satellite locations.

For owners planning their next location, the immediate decision is where to add customer access and where to add repair capacity. Those investments serve different purposes. Cordon reports that some satellite locations receive very little foot traffic, yet their local presence helps generate calls from customers who prefer a business in their own city.

The lower overhead comes with operational responsibilities. Vehicles need transportation, calls need ownership, and customers need accurate expectations. Fifth Gear assigns satellite inquiries to an experienced service advisor who understands what its shops deliver. The storefront creates access; the existing operation still has to fulfill the promise.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

[01:31] Ceasar Cordon’s experience in shop operations and business development

[03:54] Building customer trust through clear repair recommendations

[06:48] Fifth Gear’s specialization in major repairs

[09:15] Fifth Gear’s satellite model for auto repair shop expansion

[15:47] Extending market reach through shop referral partnerships

[19:19] Coaching service advisors to convert calls into shop visits

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Fifth Gear Automotive on LinkedIn
• Fifth Gear Automotive Website
• Tread Partners
• Gain Traction Podcast on YouTube
• Gain Traction Podcast Website
• Mike Edge on LinkedIn

Quotable Moments:

• “We aren’t the cheapest, and that’s fine.”
• “We don’t know what we don’t know, and we’re okay with that.”
• “You overpromise, underdeliver, and that’s never what you want to do.”

Action Steps:

1. Map one potential satellite market. Plot your existing shops and identify a nearby area you want to serve. Use Fifth Gear’s reported five-to-seven-mile range as a starting point for your own evaluation. Check actual drive times and vehicle transport requirements before selecting a location.
2. Separate customer access from repair capacity in your expansion budget. Build a side-by-side estimate for a reception-only satellite and a full repair facility. Include staffing and vehicle transportation in the satellite estimate. Ground your auto repair shop expansion plan in the capacity your existing shops have available.
3. Assign an experienced advisor to satellite inquiries. Choose someone who understands your repair capabilities and internal processes. Document who owns each customer’s call, transportation arrangements, and repair updates so the handoff between locations stays clear.
4. Review customer calls with your service advisors. Schedule a session this week and listen to calls that resulted in appointments alongside calls that did not. Identify one specific response to improve, practice it together, and check its use in the next review.
5. Start a focused referral outreach list. Identify nearby shops that do not handle the major repairs your team performs. Contact their managers to explain your capabilities and establish a clear referral contact. Give them a practical reason to trust you with work they send out.

• Ceasar Cordon
• Fifth Gear Automotive
• Gain Traction Podcast
• Mike Edge

Transcript

00:00

He would drive. He would leave Houston at four in the morning, drive all the way to my shop in Flower Mound, so I could take care of his vehicles. He would make a day trip for us to take care of his vehicles, and then he would drive home in the evening time. We’d go to lunch together while his cars were getting fixed, and it was for not large repairs. He wanted balance and rotated of his tires because no no one would do it the way I could do it for him.

00:29

Welcome to the Gain Traction Podcast, the official podcast for tire business. I am Mike Edge, your host, and I have the great privilege of connecting the industry by interviewing the best people who work in tires and auto repair. This episode is powered by Tread Partners, a leader in paid search marketing, which includes Google Ads and LSAs for multi-location tire and auto repair shops. To learn more about Tread Partners, visit TreadPartners.com. My guest today is Cesar Cordon, outside business development director for Fifth Gear Automotive, with six locations in and around North Dallas, Texas area. Cesar, welcome to the Gain Traction podcast.

01:10

Hey, thanks for

01:12

having me. Hey, it’s been a long time. I’m, you know, I think I tried to get you guys on here for a while. If you remember, I think we started this last year.

01:20

Yeah, about a year ago, actually, almost to the day. Yeah, I kind of had a big project going on, and unfortunately, our times didn’t line up. But I’m glad that that everything aligned now, and we’re here.

01:31

Well, I got a I got a sniff of your story out there, and and some different media, and you guys have done a a lot of growth here in the last few years. But before we get started on that, tell us tell me a little bit about yourself, Cesar, and you know where you came from, how you how you got in the automotive world.

01:47

So I got in the automotive world back in 2017 by accident. I was actually working for a big electronic company. They wanted me to move to California, and I’m a Texas boy. We don’t go to California, so we we split ways. And I had a buddy of mine who we worked together at the company, and I reached out to him to see what he was up to, and he was like, “Hey, I’m running an automotive shop. You want to come on board? And I said, “Yeah, let’s figure it out. I talked to the missus, and she said, “Absolutely not. She said, “Automotive is for crooks and thieves. Not at full circle, that’s what the negative connotation is with the with the industry. And she said, “The only way I’ll let you do it is if you make it better. And I said okay, and she gave me the thumbs up, and it’s been all she wrote since then. I haven’t I haven’t turned back. I ran a number of stores in Houston Marketplace, then that transferred me to back to Dallas, where it’s home for both of us. And it it’s really odd because if I would have been transferred to the store that I originally wanted, it would have taken me another three years to learn who Fifth Gear was. It just so happened that I ran the shop down the street from the Lewisville location, which is the mothership where everything started back in 2004, and business development used to come to my location. John Miller, which was the director, who was the director of the whole business development department, started visiting my shop my first year back in Dallas at Flower Mound, actually. And yeah, fast forward three years, I’m I’m on board as a service advisor. Fast forward 11 months. I’m now on the business development side, and now it’s been six years with four people under on the team. I mean, we visit about anywhere between 14 to 1600 different shops in a given month.

03:54

Wow, that’s impressive. What do you like most about the industry? Since you’re an outside, you came from the outside. It’s misunderstood. You’ve been in it, and and and you know you got past that.

04:06

It’s misunderstood.

04:08

Yeah,

04:08

and and I can definitely see, you know, since I’m from the outside, right? I didn’t grow up in it. I can see both sides of the coin, where it’s you have to have profits, but you also need to do what’s right by the customer.

04:24

Yeah,

04:25

and at the end of the day, unfortunately, we’re not going to be able to make everyone happy. But as long as you can make more than not, that’s what you try to do.

04:35

You know, I think that’s a good way of phrasing it, and I think it’s interesting that you know everybody that comes into the shops, they don’t want to be there. That’s number one. That’s that’s the reality. And some people have it in their disposition to blame others, right? And so it’s immediately, yeah, I’ve got a car problem, but he’s made it worse, or it’s not. It’s not. He he gave me the information. But I don’t trust him, or whatever it is, and and they and because of the the connotation, or maybe it is a bad experience they’ve had. It’s something that we all have to get over all the time. I mean, you know, and ever since I’ve joined this industry, I have great respect for the shop owners that I go visit, and the you know the ones that that take care of my my vehicles, and they gen they genuinely are trying to solve your problem, you know. I mean, and and and they do hate delivering bad news. They they know when it’s going to be bad news, and they’re like, oh,

05:34

it’s never easy. It’s never easy. I mean, people bring in their vehicle for one thing, and you know, fifth gear being a DVI shop where you know we give the digital video inspections to everyone, and and to have the customers have to be educated to know that hey you came in for one thing, but I have to tell you that the other things are going to go bad pretty soon. Look, you don’t have to do them today, but I have to put them under your radar, and and you’ll see more than that. A lot of customers will be thankful for it, but then you still have those. Well, I didn’t ask you to look for that. I understand, but for your safety, I have to inform you.

06:12

Yeah,

06:12

and but yeah, like I said, as long as you can make more happy than not, that’s that’s what we’re here to do.

06:17

And one thing for sure, I think, and you guys doing DVI and everything probably learned through the process is more communication is always better. Absolutely, it’s it’s never worse. Doesn’t mean they take it well, but the reality is, I’m I’m making a full effort of always communicating with you and try to tell you everything that’s going on with your vehicle, and at least you get that from me. And when you leave here today, you’re going to know that I gave you everything I could.

06:42

Yeah, that personable aspect is what you have to bring that separates you from everyone else.

06:48

So, what do you think sets what’s what sets you guys apart in your marketplace? I know you got a quote. I already asked you that, but I’d like you to tell the audience because I think it’s.

06:59

Oh, so I mean, the the quote that I have for myself in in general is be comfortable being uncomfortable.

07:05

Yeah.

07:06

By nature, I am not very outgoing, but I’ve learned in my past years I’m pretty good at it. So when when push comes to shove, pressure creates flow, right? So for me, putting myself in situations like this-I mean, podcast was never on my bingo card of life, right? Now this is my second one, and and I thoroughly enjoy it. But absolutely, it’s it’s one of those that that that’s great. But what really separates Fifth Gear in our marketplace, is that we generally do larger repairs. It’s a more heavy line repair service. I mean, the the smaller services, the maintenance items aren’t our forte. When we get cars in, they’re broken. So I mean, AR rose well into the 1000s per per per vehicle. So that’s what really separates us, and especially our business development side, which, like I said, John Miller and myself and the rest of the team heavily influence about 35% of overall revenue for the organization by referrals from other shops.

08:27

That’s awesome. So you guys have found a niche there in North Dallas, then?

08:33

Absolutely. We we always say that we’re the alternative to the dealership. I mean, you pay what you get what you pay for. We aren’t the cheapest, and that’s fine. We don’t have to be for everybody, but at the end of the day, we do run a two to three day turnaround time. If it’s a if it’s a motor transmission, I ask you for four to five days. But I mean, there’s more than not where I’ve had customers drop off their vehicle on Monday on f1 50 for a motor, and they’re driving home by Friday. Where at the dealership you’re looking at two weeks just to get looked at, then it’s another week for diag, then it’s two weeks to get the who can be out of their vehicle for two months. I mean, that’s miserable. Yeah, no,

09:15

it’s a it’s a problem that’s a becomes a bigger problem, and it’s it’s terrible for the client or customer. Speak a little bit about your spoken hub model. Okay, I think that’s pretty cool. And what you discovered from a marketing level in your in your you know your geographic region about actually having a physical location in a particular spot that made all the difference in the world of attracting the business versus them just driving to you.

09:45

Absolutely. So here in DFW, it’s very difficult to open up an automotive shop if you’re not grandfathered in, or if you’re not getting a special use permit or a conditional use permit. It’s very difficult to open up an automotive shop. So for marketplaces that we’ve identified that we would like to be able to capture more customer base out of that that that specific area, we’ve realized we’re going to rob a duplicate. We have a saying at at fifth here: it’s R and D, right? You know, rob a duplicate, and we took it from the the dry cleaner model. 99% of the time, you drop your suit off at the dry cleaner. It actually isn’t laundered there. They actually take it off site, do the laundered, and then they bring it back, and then you just pick it up. So we decided let’s try it. There was a specific market in in North Texas, it’s Frisco, and it’s very difficult to get into to the city for a lot of things. But we decided let’s let’s test it out, right? So we open up our first what we call a satellite service center. You open the door; it’s in a shopping center, strip mall kind of area where you’re gonna see a lot of flow, a lot of traffic, and basically you open the front door and it looks like fifth gear, it smells like fifth gear, but there’s no shop. There’s a waiting area for when the customers drop off their vehicle and they’re waiting for their Ubers to be taken home. But we’ve also learned that a high percentage of our customer base are concierge, especially from that marketplace, where all they do is they call the the satellite center, and we can actually have their vehicle picked up from their residence and taken over to one of our hubs, which is the McKinney store or our Lewisville location, anything like that. So right now we have, like I said, six auto shops, and we have three full, four. My polys four full flight satellite service centers that are feeding some of these hubs currently.

11:49

How far will you put a hub away from, or not? I guess not the hub, but you know, how far would you put a satellite from the hub? Yeah.

12:00

So our heat maps have indicated that we can penetrate anywhere between seven to 10 miles. So we like to stay within that geographical area, and I say five to seven miles is our sweet zone. Outside of that, where you start seeing a downturn.

12:17

So are you are you hauling the car cars back and forth on a on a flatbed, or or maybe not after the so if the vehicle’s

12:24

if the vehicle’s drivable, we drive it.

12:26

Okay,

12:26

but like I said, if we get probably let’s say in a given month, we may get no more than 10 people to actually even enter that front door. What it really does for you is the marketing play. Now instead of you saying fifth gear near me and it brings up a fifth gear two cities over where you’re not wanting to go now it actually brings up fifth gear in your city so now you’re more likely to call and once I get that call now let me handle the logistics how do I get your car whether it’s you coming to me or me coming to you the way we’re gonna get the vehicle in,

13:03

man. That’s so cool. It’s very interesting. So, do you guys use a a call hub? Do you have a you know call center?

13:10

No, we actually have one gentleman right now that’s currently we’re piloting it. And look, that’s the one thing. I know the huge thing that I love about the organization as a whole is let’s figure it out. We don’t know what we don’t know, and we’re okay with that. But let’s go pay the tuition, like we say, and and let’s go figure this out. So right now we have one gentleman, Dennis, who actually is residing in our Castle Hills location, and he is getting the phone calls from our Frisco Satellite Center, our Allen Satellite Center and our South Lake Center, and they’re all funneling into one store. So he’s remote, but then let’s say he’s there for this month. Next month, he’ll he may be in Allen, but all the phones will be then be forwarded to Allen. So he really takes care ownership of all of those tickets.

13:58

Man, that’s cool. Do you guys is this your projected model going forward? Then too,

14:04

I believe I believe so. I mean, I think that’s what’s on the that’s what’s on our you know our 2030 org chart is to work towards you know having a multitude of these plus another couple hubs under our belt. I think the goal is to have 10 in the near future, and

14:22

10 satellites or a combination of 10 satellites and hubs.

14:25

No, 10 hubs as a whole, and then satellites can we can go crazy on those because you know very little overhead on that along on those guys.

14:35

So, what kind of personnel do you hire for the satellite, and how do you go about that versus the the ones that are at the so what

14:42

we have right now currently Dennis has been with us for about four years and he is a service advisor that was hired for when our McKinney location opened up. Now that McKinney’s up and running, he’s had the luxury of focus to go focus on this is kind of his next. That he wanted it endures is to try something different and really kind of champion this through through the finish line. So, service advisor in general. I mean, you’re going to have to be with us for a little bit, understand it, and I think that’s the better way to do it is is learning from the inside out.

15:15

Yeah.

15:16

So that’s

15:17

what I was wondering.

15:18

Yeah. It’s difficult. I mean, especially like I said, if you don’t understand us, what we can do, and we’re able, you can’t. You overpromise, underdeliver, and that’s never what you want to do.

15:29

So you take the you take somebody from experience on the inside. They’ve seen the inner workings. They know the process. So when they get out to the satellite, it’s they do a much better job, obviously, explaining it and and giving people, you know, better idea what’s going to happen in the the process.

15:44

Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

15:47

God, Lee, I think that model is so interesting. Does do you find it? Do you find it? Are you ever tempted to go further away from like, let’s say, North Dallas is your core? Do you ever get tempted to go beyond that core in your growth, or are you going to grow like connect it to the core just out, or are you going to?

16:10

That’s the game plan. Okay, is to grow from from from the center. I mean, we’re all from this area. This all okay.

16:17

I mean,

16:19

for example, Connie, she’s one of my team members from business development. She actually goes all the way to Oklahoma for shop referrals, and crazy enough, we we sent her out there a number of years ago, thinking, “Hey, it’s going to take a while for us to be able to actually see something that’s profitable from that area, and man, we’re we’re getting cars that are three hours north of the border coming in three four hours away that are being referred to our McKinney and Crossroads locations. I mean, it’s it’s unheard of, but they’re passing hundreds of shops between Oklahoma and here, but they’re choosing because of our reputation and our Google reviews really sell a story. I mean, we I think we have over 10,000 reviews out of all of our locations with a 4.9 rated over all of them.

17:10

Man, Caesar, that’s big, and it says a lot about the need of just good quality service at that level that you guys are providing it. Like you said, I mean, you’re doing the big, deep work, and a lot of people avoid that. You’re not, and for that reason, there are enormous amounts of shops that want to find a partner or need. They just need they need a partner.

17:34

I’ll give you a story about how above and beyond we’ve we’ve gone before, and this is where I realized that we’re different. Had a Range Rover, blown head gasket, needed a new motor. Okay, it’s a big job. Let’s put it that customer really needed the vehicle back by Saturday. We had a porter jump in it in one of the company vehicles at four a.m. Drive all the way to Houston, which is a four-hour drive. Pick up the motor. Come all the way back. That customer drove home on Friday with a new motor in the in their Land Rover.

18:14

Wow, big deal.

18:18

Yeah, big deal. I mean, normal shops. We go. Oh, we’ll wait for freight to come in. Blah blah. No, the customer needs a vehicle. Let’s let’s make this happen. Yeah, I mean. So,

18:28

man, you guys really, really, really go the extra mile. I mean, that’s a long haul, brother.

18:33

Yeah, I mean, but that’s what separates us from from the norm. I mean, any really,

18:38

you’re really not really. There’s nothing outside your boundary in regards to potentially saying yes. You’re just you got to think about it, but you’re willing to make it work. Yeah,

18:49

absolutely. That that that’s the thing is you have to figure out ways because look, and you can Google automotive shop near me. Do it. You’re gonna get and change it. Say automotive shop near me. Then you do, you know. If you drive a Ford Ford dealership near me, it’ll constantly change. You’ll see 1000 places. But what’s gonna separate you from that person? That’s the name of the game. Make that phone ring and get that customer in.

19:19

That’s a fact. I mean, obviously, we teach that on the trade partner side. That’s what we do in AdWords, and and it’s so important in how you set it up, what you’re trying to, the parameters that you give Google, and what you want, what you don’t want, and when someone calls, you want to be able to say you do whatever it is that they’re calling for because that’s the lead that you paid for, and and you’re just trying to. I mean, there’s no better customer to meet today than the one that’s seeking your services today, period. And and you guys, so you guys are confident when you get them on the phone that you can basically sell your services or explain them well.

19:57

Absolutely, there’s just two two stage close. Is what they say, right? You got to close the customer on on the visit, and you close them when you’re when they’re in the store.

20:07

Do you guys do a lot of training for that?

20:09

We do. There’s weekly calls that leadership does with the service advisors every week, and it’s different service advisors every week, but they have an hour, hour and a half long call, and they’ll listen to calls-the good, bad, and indifferent-and they’ll dissect them. All right, what could we have done to overcome the obstacles? What could we have done to you know maybe close that customer and and and get them to come in?

20:35

I’m glad to hear you say that because on the tread side, our parent company, our biggest challenge is: look, we’re going to get you leads, but I can tell you, most of people’s problem is picking up the phone and how they handle that call because we listen to them too, and our team does, not me. But it’s it’s very it’s there’s so much to learn from those calls, and when you can clean it up by just the smallest tweaks in behavior or the way you handle something, it’s amazing the revenue change it can create.

21:10

Absolutely, absolutely. I know a district manager when I first started in Houston gave me this old saying. He said, “Never disappoint a customer over the phone. Get them at least in your shop before you disappoint them.

21:25

I mean, there’s some good old raw,

21:30

yeah,

21:30

genuine advice right there, and that is just-I mean, that’s some street smarts right there. I mean, really, just get them in the store before you take them off. I mean, you know, because yeah, that’s so funny because you know it is funny. I’ve I’ve been in shops where I’ve listened to phone calls. I’m always trying to eavesdrop or whatever. I just pay attention to somebody picking up a phone. Doesn’t even have to be in this industry, and I’m just sit there and I’ll shake my head like, “Ooh, that was bad. That’s bad response. You should have taken that a whole nother way. You know, there’s so many other ways that you can do things, and ultimately, it’s kind of like I just encourage you to look it up. One, it’s a it’s kind of a long story. I won’t get into it today, but it’s Bear Bryant, the famous coach for Alabama. He he he had a a speech he gave one time called about. It was talked about be nice, like your mama taught you, and it’ll pay dividends. And he, it’s a great lesson. But if you get a chance, look it up on YouTube or whatever, and you can hear him tell the story about being nice. And he’s, he’s actually, you can tell he’s at a banquet somewhere. He’s giving a speech, but he tells this story about recruiting, and he he was he was rewarded like 10 or 15 years later because he was nice to a restaurant owner in South Alabama. Years later, the guy had a grandson, and the kid wanted to play for Auburn, and the granddad basically said, “No, you’re not playing for it. You’re playing for Bear Bryant, and because they were recruiting him as well, he said, ‘Well, I don’t want to go there. He said, ‘Well, you going there? He goes because I met him and he’s a man that keeps his word. And he said, and all I did was I was just nice to the guy. I was just being myself, you know. But it paid dividends 10 or whatever. It was like it was like 10 years later at least, and it was just it’s just a cool story. And he said, so his his story was or his his his lesson was be be nice like your mama taught you, you know. And I think it just we we we do overcomplicate sometimes the whole sales process or whatever. But if just straightforward with people and you’re nice, and like you’re you you, it’s same way we’re training our people to answer the phones. Just just be nice. I mean, and let’s and then and let’s be courteous, and let’s try to figure out. Remember, they got a problem. That’s why they’re calling. They’re probably not going to be in a great mood. So let’s figure out how to turn them into at least something positive and make make their day brighter a little bit.

23:54

I got a gem for you. So speaking about being nice, I have a customer, Mister Anderson. Okay, this is my second shop in Houston, and he comes in, and he’s just one of those guys. You know, he’s going to be a difficult person, and he brought his daughter’s Chevy in, and let’s just say, if anything worse could go wrong, everything went wrong. And man, when I tell you he was ready and hot and bothered, and I overcame the obstacles and I took care of him and made sure that he understood that hey, I understand that we messed up or something or I made it right to the point where he would drive up until you know six years ago when I was running another shop, he would drive. He would leave Houston at four in the morning, drive all the way to my shop in Flower Mound, so I could take care of his vehicles. He would make a day trip for us to take care of his vehicles, and then he would drive home in the evening time. We’d go to lunch. Together while his cars were getting fixed, and then he would drive home that evening. And it was for not large repairs. He wanted balance and rotated of his tires because no no one would do it the way I could do it for him.

25:15

Oh my gosh, that is might be one of the best best testimonials I’ve ever heard. I mean that to we

25:21

stay we stay in touch till this day. He’s a he’s a a good old boy. He he’s he wants to take me out hunting, fishing, and I told him anytime I’m in the area, I’ll give him a shout. But yeah, I have made it down the to go hunt with him. But but yeah, wow boy

25:39

Caesar, that’s awesome. That’s a good story to to close on. I can’t thank you enough for being part of the podcast. I really appreciate you being here.

25:48

I appreciate your time, and honestly, let’s not wait another year till till we do it again for sure.

25:54

I’d love to have you back on. I love your all’s model. I want to stay in touch, and I want to I want to continue to hear about your all’s growth and and you’ve been a great testimony just to the industry. I appreciate you.

26:06

I appreciate. Next time you’re in the area, come on down and we’ll take you get some good barbecue. Okay.

26:10

I love it, and I will hold you to that. All

26:13

right.

26:14

All right. Take care, my friend.

26:15

Thank you, bud.

26:16

Hey, folks. Mike Edge here with the Gain Traction Podcast. Real quick, we get a lot of people ask us; they know gain traction, but who who’s Tread Partners? Well, Tread Partners is our parent company, and they’re a marketing agency dedicated strictly to tire and automotive repair shops, anywhere from five locations all the way up to hundreds of locations. And primarily, one field that is always a pain for most people is paid search or PPC or Google Ads, we see enormous amount of waste in it, and we see inefficient spend in it. If you want to know if you’re doing well or not, give us a call. We’ll help you. We’ll audit your account. We’ll look under the hood and tell you if you’re doing things the right way or the wrong way, and help you optimize that spend. You can reach me, and I’ll direct you in the right direction at Mike at TreadPartners.com, or feel free to go to treadpartners.com, the website. To all our listeners, thank you for being part of Gain Traction. If you’d like to find more podcasts like this, visit gaintractionpodcast.com. If you’d like to make a guest recommendation, please email me at [email protected]. This episode has been powered by Tread Partners, the leader in paid search marketing such as Google Ads and LSAs for multi-location tire and auto repair shops. To learn more about Tread Partners, visit treadpartners.com. Don’t forget to like and subscribe. We will see you here next time on the Gain Traction Podcast.