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David Brandenstein is the Key Account Manager at Prism Worldwide. Originally from Evansville, Indiana, David boasts a rich background in the chemical materials industry. He retired a few years ago before being lured back into the workforce by Prism. His career has been dedicated to supplying raw materials for daily-use products, leading him to pursue impactful recycling technology projects.
Mark Kinkelaar is the Chief Commercial Officer at Prism Worldwide. An Ohio native and Ohio State alumnus, Mark has had a long career in the chemical industry, with a focus on designing materials for automotive applications and green technology. Currently, he operates at the intersection of commercial and technical operations at Prism, where he is instrumental in leading the company’s efforts to repurpose end-of-life tires into valuable new products.
In this episode…
The automotive industry is increasingly focused on sustainability efforts, including finding innovative solutions for end-of-life products. What happens to worn-down tires when they are no longer usable on vehicles, and how can they be repurposed?
According to David Brandenstein and Mark Kinkelaar of Prism Worldwide, approximately 300 million tires are disposed of annually in the US alone, equating to about 10 billion pounds of material. While many of these tires are burned or chopped up in landfills, Prism is working to reverse the vulcanization process and transform this waste into valuable raw materials. They are developing technologies to incorporate recycled tire content into new products, such as car mats, thermoplastic elastomers, and even back into new tires — effectively creating a circular economy for tire materials.
On this episode of Gain Traction, Mike Edge welcomes David and Mark to discuss tire recycling and sustainability. They explore the challenges of repurposing tire materials, innovative technologies for reversing vulcanization, and potential applications for recycled tire content in various industries, including automotive, construction, and consumer goods.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- [02:27] David Brandenstein’s journey from materials supplier to tire recycling innovator
- [03:36] Mark Kinkelaar’s transition from automotive seating materials to leading the charge in tire sustainability
- [04:29] The unique process Prism Worldwide uses to repurpose end-of-life tires into new products
- [05:17] Challenges faced with recycling tires due to the vulcanization process
- [06:28] How a single used tire can be turned into multiple useful products
- [12:18] Opportunities for dealers to brand and sell sustainable car mats
- [18:29] How Prism stays committed to the “green without the green premium” philosophy
- [25:51] The importance and personal significance of contributing to a sustainable future
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- David Brandenstein on LinkedIn
- Mark Kinkelaar on LinkedIn
- Prism Worldwide
- Bob Abramowitz on LinkedIn
- WeatherTech
- US Tire Manufacturers Association
- Mike Edge on LinkedIn
- Tread Partners
Quotable Moments:
- “The secret to doing it is you have to reverse the polymerization, and that’s something that’s over 100 years in the making.” – Mark Kinkelaar.
- “There are two kinds of people — those who are takers and those who try to make the world a better place.” – David Brandenstein.
- “It’s green without the green premium; that’s the key.” – David Brandenstein.
- “We’re solving some pretty big problems in a lot of different ways.” – Mark Kinkelaar.
Action Steps:
- Support sustainable products: this encourages manufacturers to follow green practices, reducing environmental impact.
- Encourage transparency. This will pressure companies to improve their sustainability efforts and can boost the demand for recycled materials in new products.
- Collaborate for sustainability: Collaboration can scale the use of sustainable materials, significantly reducing waste.
- Educate on what’s possible: education helps build consumer confidence in recycled products, driving market demand and inspiring further innovation.
- Practice daily sustainability. Individual action can inspire others, creating a collective effort that can have a significant positive environmental impact.
Transcript
Announcer:
Welcome to the Gain Traction Podcast, where we feature top automotive entrepreneurs and experts and share their inspiring stories. Now, let’s get started with the show.
Mike:
Hello, folks. Welcome to the Gain Traction Podcast. I am Mike Edge, your host. Today’s guests are David Brandenstein and Mark Kinkelaar with Prism Worldwide. This interview is a result of the Traction Summit titled Sustainability and Tires by Smithers.
I met many folks in Charlotte a couple weeks ago at the Traction Summit, and one group specifically caught my attention. That is the Prism Worldwide. And these two guys are going to tell us a lot about sustainability in tires and what’s going on in that world.
As you know, before we get started, we got to do our podcast sponsorship. This podcast is brought to you by Tread Partners, the leading digital marketing agency in the tire and auto repair space for multi-location shops that have five to hundreds of locations. If you need an industry-knowledgeable marketing partner that specializes in the nuances of multi-location marketing and knows how to make good shops better and bad shops winners, contact Tread Partners today. Start winning today, and learn more about Tread Partners at Treadpartners.com.
As you know, I’d like to encourage you to listen to past guests. I recently interviewed Eric Gill with Gills Point S Tire and Auto. He is now at 71 stores and has a team of great people. It’s a great interview. I had a lot of fun doing it. Please check it out.
All right. Let’s gain traction and get started. David and Mark, welcome to the Gain Traction Podcast. Good to see you again.
Mark:
Hey, Mike-
David:
Thanks for having us on.
Mike:
Well, listen guys, I’m not blowing smoke. You caught my attention down there in Charlotte. I thought the Traction Summit was very interesting. But when we sat around and had lunch one day, and you guys told me what you did, it really stood out, the fact that, I mean, you’re really bringing in the whole circular aspect of the tire. I mean, you’re doing something with discarded tires. And …
Well, let’s talk about who you guys are first and then how you got to where you’re at today. David, if you want to lead the charge, because you and I met first, tell me where you’re from and … Although, I do know, across the enemy line there, but let the audience know who you are and where you came from real quick.
David:
I mean, if you can’t grow up and be from Owensboro, Kentucky, you might as well be from Evansville, Indiana. I grew up in Evansville, Indiana. Southern Indiana. I’m a Hoosier, and I’m proud of it. I got out of school in ’84. And big recession back then. Couldn’t find a job. I drew about a 200-mile radius around Evansville, and I wound up getting a job in Chicago in the chemical business. I’ve been in the materials world supplying different raw materials that would go into various things you would use in your everyday life.
I actually had retired a couple years ago, and then I got a call from a recruiter working with Prism that says, “I got something you might be interested in, Dave. These guys are trying to make a difference in the world of recycling, but there’s technology to it. And this might fit for you.” And here I am almost two years later working for the guy you’re going to be talking to next.
Mike:
Awesome. Mark. The man. The myth. The legend.
Mark:
Mike, grew up in Ohio also. Well, started in Cleveland for first 18 years. Went to Ohio State for 10. Took some time. Avoided growing up a while. And found myself in the chemical industry also. My career started actually designing materials for automotive seats, calling on OEMs. Been up and down the dial, making materials, making chemicals. Been doing a lot of the green tech bio-based materials as well. Been here with Prism now for two and a half, almost three, years leading up both the commercial side and the technical side of the business.
Mike:
Awesome.
Mark:
Like David, it’s a great opportunity. We’re making some real possible changes in what happens to a tire when it’s done with its useful life.
Mike:
That’s awesome. This is what I’m excited about telling the audience about. You guys … The title of the Traction Summit … And I want to really give those guys a lot of credit for bringing that conference together. We got to meet there.
And what they talk about in sustainability with tires. But what you guys are doing there is awesome because you’re really making the life of the tire circular to … It’s not going to the dump, in other words.
And let’s talk about the facts of what happens to a tire after you get one taken off your car, and you look on your receipt, and you’ve got a disposal fee. You guys walked me through that process. Let’s walk through that process again. Either one of you.
Mark:
Sure. Sure. Let’s talk big picture. When you look at the US, there’s about, I don’t know, 300 million tires a year disposed of. Globally, it’s maybe four times that. 300 million tires a year is about 10 billion pounds of tires. It’s just a huge pile. And the numbers are growing, both in weight and in numbers of tires. There’s more vehicles. EVs are using tires 25% faster. And the tires are bigger, so they weigh 30% more. There’s a lot of statistics. The US Tire Manufacturers Association is publishing a lot of those statistics, and they are the industry standard there.
When you look at what happens when you pay your fee, you’re paying your fee basically for the tire to go away and not be in a big tire pile, but it’s properly treated. When you look at what happens, a good portion of those tires are either burned or chopped up in landfill. More than half.
And we are looking at taking that as a raw material and doing something with it that’s of more value.
Mike:
Excellent.
David:
It’s one thing … It’s funny. I was at an automotive conference, and the chief technology person from one of the tier two automotive guys said she hates the term recycle or scrap because, if you look at that tire, a passenger tire is about 25 pounds of rubber. Well, in its useful life, you basically wear off about 20% of that. Roughly, goes from 25 to 20 pounds of rubber.
That remaining polymer is still good. And so, she said, “I hate recycled. I’d like the people to use the term experienced instead of recycled or scrap because it’s still good material, but up to now just not had many good uses.”
Mike:
No, that’s a great … Why do things go to the landfill? What’s the motivation?
Mark:
When you look at it, there’s also a portion of maybe a quarter of the materials ground up into a tire sand. And that material has got some usefulness, and it’s finding its way in ball fields and things like that, although less and less so. It’s finding less use there. That the challenge with the tire is that, when they make the tire, they actually cure it in place. A process called vulcanization. You can’t melt a tire. You can’t reprocess it like you can a normal plastic.
And the chemistry of the vulcanization is permanent. The only way to get raw materials back out of it is to reverse that vulcanization. And Prism is in the business of taking the end-of-life tire in the form of that tire sand we just talked about, reversing the pulverization to some level. Sounds complicated. It’s chemistry. It’s mechanics. And we take that as a raw material. And we add value to it.
We have customers in the tire space who are looking at putting that back into tire, and it works. And that’s four to six years, depending on who you’re talking to. It’s a long game. But we’re also making things like thermoplastic elastomers, like a car mat, and we just launched a car mat based on this material. These materials can find a lot-
Mike:
And you showed me some pretty cool pictures. Those things are cool designs, too.
Mark:
Well, thank you. Appreciate that. Absolutely. We’re proud of it. We have it on sale now at Walmart.com. We can offer it to … We’re actually looking for partners, retail partners, on that material. On that mat. Excuse me. But really, the emphasis is … Here’s the material. This is what you can do with it. Let’s find a place to work together. We’re looking for OEMs. We’re looking for people in construction and gasketing who could take this material and use it more broadly. We’re taking end-of-life tires and finding uses for it in the automotive sector but broadly outside as well. [inaudible 00:09:29]-
David:
Mike, to answer your … Just to answer your question other … You’re talking about why. Well, it’s just harder to use recycled material than it is to use virgin product. And in many cases, it can be cheaper for some things.
Mike:
You mean virginous?
David:
Right. The virgin raw material. You’re not dealing with any impurities. And so, I think that’s why a lot of manufacturers … Plus, I think some of these chemical companies … They make a lot more money building these huge factories, manufacturing plants, than they do having something that’s a little simpler like we do to put just enough chemistry and just enough mechanical action to turn this into something that can be molded. Not at 100%. We’re not replacing all the polymer, but we’re replacing 20% or 30% of it.
And doing that, we are reducing by 20% or 30% the amount of virgin material, the amount of oil pumping out of the ground, that needs to be consumed to make virgin products.
Mike:
And tell me again. One tire makes how many floor mats for a car?
David:
Well, one tire is about 20 pounds of material.
Mark:
It’s four sets.
Mike:
Four sets. One tire-
Mark:
[inaudible 00:10:46] four-
Mike:
One tire makes four sets. That’s incredible.
Mark:
That is.
David:
And Mark said we got 300 million scrap ones being generated.
Mark:
Buy a lot of sets. The mats that we launched … It’s based on a material we call Ancora C-1082. It’s an 82 shoray, not to get nerdy on you.
Mike:
I like it.
Mark:
But it’s an injection-moldable grade. You can injection mold a broad spectrum of parts with this material. It’s 50% tire content injection molded, which, in the space, that’s significant. You can’t do anything like that.
David:
Nobody else does that. Right?
Mark:
Nobody else does that right now. And the secret to doing it is you have to reverse the polymerization. And that’s something that’s over 100 years in the making.
Mike:
That’s awesome. While it’s on my mind, and then I know somebody’s sitting there listening right now thinking he said it’s on Walmart.com, but what if I want to sell them in my stores?
What’s the brand? Or where can they go to find out more information right now while they’re listening to this podcast if they want to know … They want to go look at it. Where can they go look at it other than Walmart.com?
And then you guys … From my understanding, it’s the label on it. What’s that look like, I guess? How …
Mark:
Absolutely. We’re selling this product under the CIRX trade name. C-I-R-X. We are actively looking for distribution retail partners. And certainly your readership would be interested in this. We’d be happy to talk to them. They can check out the product at our website, Prismww.com. And if they’re interested in getting one, if they use the discount code, Gain Traction, we’ll give them 10 bucks off to take a look at it and see if it’s for them.
Mike:
Awesome.
Mark:
Happy to support them and talk to them about private labeling or whatever interests your listenership, I think.
David:
And we can also put their name on the mat if they want to have a little branding opportunity. We’re not in the business to make mats, but we got into it because we were showing the people who like to use virgin materials, and not recycled products, that look at the quality material that you can be made. It’s like the coasters that we handed out when we first met at Traction.
When you tell somebody-
Mike:
[inaudible 00:13:31]. Look at there.
David:
You got it. You’re representing there. When we … At our first international elastomer conference, when we were telling people we were doing this, making this … TPE is the technical name for it. And they’d say, “You got how much in there?” And we’d say, “We got over 50% end-of-life tire polymer in there.” GTR, they call it. Ground tire rubber. Before we transform this stuff into a sticky polymer that you can make something out of. And we’d hand them one of those. And they’d feel that. And they’d smell it. And they’d expect it to smell like a tire fire. Or they’d want to think it’d be sand papery or rough, which is what you’ll … When you see a tire cord cut open, it’s pretty rough. And we’re not like that. I mean, now, we’re not smooth as a baby’s bottom, but we’re pretty darn good-
Mike:
That’s pretty smooth, though.
David:
It is pretty smooth. And we’re as good as a virgin product. We said, “Well, you know what? Let’s just start making some of these things.” And Mark really drove that to …
Sometimes you just got to show what you can do as opposed to-
Mike:
That’s what I was thinking, too. Your challenge is, look, you’re going out there in the marketplace, but at the same time, yes, this has other uses, right? I mean, but it’s cool that you guys went ahead and made an end product so that people could see that, hey, look, this process is going on. This is just one end product. Right?
David:
Right. Right.
Mike:
Exactly. I mean, for that many tires a year, we’re going to need other products. I mean, we can’t just be making floor mats, right?
David:
Well, look at how people are tricking out their cars and trucks these days. Mud flaps. Mud guards on the inside. I mean, there’s just … Truck bed liners. Anything that’s black on a truck or a car, I mean, can use a material like this or another version that we do that’s more for plastic applications. But there’s black material on heavy trucks. On passenger. Everywhere.
Mike:
Man, that’s awesome.
Mark:
Mike, you’re right. We have, actually, two or three key lines of business that we’re in. We’re trying to get rubber back into rubber. We’re talking to a lot of the major tire companies. 75% of the rubber industry is tire. 25%’s not tire. We’re talking to both. To globally.
And we have the elastomers like what you’re seeing. And these elastomers are finding uses in things like snowmobile parts, golf carts, farm equipment, heavy truck. We have one customer who is making sheets, real thin sheets, of this material with an adhesive. And we’re looking at … Does it work for bicycle handles? Golf grips?
David:
Back pads.
Mark:
Anywhere where there’s a soft touch. Step treads. Step pad treads where it’s non-slip. All of these spaces make a lot of sense.
The other segment we’re calling … We’re calling it by the trade name, NOVA. We’re modifying olefins, modifying plastics, and this is finding its way into things that are a little harder, like mud flaps, but also industrial applications. We have a customer who is in the utilities space. They make pedestals, and they make vaults. Underground vaults. Big, big pieces of plastic for utilities. And just like every other industry, there’s all of a sudden a demand for recycle content, and there’s a demand for recycle content that’s post-consumer. Post-consumer is really tricky to find, but tires are post-consumer [inaudible 00:17:21] finding its way.
Industrial applications and automotive and sportswear. These all make perfect sense. We’re even finding our way in the house, housewares, a little bit. We’re making black totes out of this material, of all things, where 10%, 15% of the tote is end-of-life tire. Who would’ve thought, right?
David:
And right now-
Mike:
But what you guys … Let’s say this again, though. You’re not looking to always be the product maker. You’re looking to be the supplier of the material to somebody.
David:
Right.
Mark:
We are primarily a material supplier. We’ve made these mats to demonstrate to the industry what we can do. Absolutely. 100%.
Mike:
And that’s why I think you’re great for this audience. I mean, we got a lot of dealers listening, and there’s a lot of big dealer groups that may say, “Hey, you know what? I think we want to get these things branded with my name on it, and it could be ABC company, ABC Tire Company, and I can have my own brand on my own mats, and we’ll sell them.” And it’s a great way of saying, “Hey, we’re selling recycled rubber right here. It came from tires,” and …
Mark:
We’d be pleased to do that. Absolutely.
David:
Mark told me this one time when he was talking to one of our customers in the aftermarket space. It’s interesting. A lot of these guys just sell aftermarket mats. They’re all owned by private equity companies. The majority of them.
WeatherTech has put it out in the news that they also are looking to get acquired. Anyhow, they were talking about the segment. And the guy … Mark was saying, “Well, how long does it take for a mat to wear out?” And the guy says, “Now, they don’t really wear out any of them. They ugly out. They just get ugly enough.” They’re like, “I’m just going to buy a new set.”
Mike:
That’s basically true. Right?
Mark:
Absolutely true.
Mike:
I just got a wild question. We haven’t talked about this, but what happens … Let’s say, for instance, I have one your mats, and it gets uglied out. And what do I do with that thing if I want to … Could it have more life, hypothetically? Could it go through the life cycle again?
Mark:
Couple answers. They clean very, very well. We’ve even tested in those automatic mat cleaners, like you find at some car washes. Kind of cool. But after you’re done with it, it can be … Unlike tires, you can chop this up, melt it, and reprocess it. It’s more or less a polypropylene. It could go into a polypropylene stream. Right now, there’s not a lot of that collected for recycle. But, yes, there there’s a future high towards being able to reuse the material again.
David:
Right. Well, and that comes back to this whole idea that everybody’s trying to make tires more circular. How do we get it into a material stream like we’re doing? And then how do we figure out, working with retail partners … How can we get that back into a tire shredder again or back to our facility? And that’s going to take time to get that network going, but that’s where these materials could go.
Because they don’t have tire cord in them. They don’t have any of the others. They can be ground up and shredded and go back into typically at a 20% rate into a new mat.
Mike:
Man, that’s awesome.
As we wrap this thing up, I like to get a little personal. And is there any words of wisdom that you guys like to live by that you …
I don’t know. I always ask my guests. Is there something that keeps you going or is a motto that you live by or somebody that … A mentor that influenced you or something, and it affects your everyday way of doing business or living, for that matter?
David:
Mark, do you want to go first?
Mark:
No, David. You’re more philosophical than I am.
David:
Well-
Mike:
I see the light bulb above David’s head right now.
David:
I just turned 63. And as I’ve lived, I guess I see that, in the world, there are two kinds of people. There are takers, and then there are people who try to make the world a better place. I also see that there’s not black and white. I mean, we’re all like this on both sides, but I just try to look at any situation I get into. Can I leave it better than I found it?
Mike:
I like it.
David:
I mean, if I’m walking, and I see a piece of garbage … And how many times do you see something like that five feet from a trash can? Well, I’m going to pick it up and throw it in there. And, I mean, it may not be a huge difference, but it’s a little thing that I could do right then. And I just challenge myself to think about what can I do to leave it a little better than I found it.
Mike:
But I like that philosophy because everything starts with the baby steps, right?
David:
Right.
Mike:
That’s it.
David:
You know that old story about the little girl walking on the beach, and she sees all these starfish and she-
Mike:
Yes.
David:
… picks one up-
Mike:
Love that one.
David:
… and throws it in.
Mike:
Go ahead and say that.
David:
She picks this one starfish up and throws it out into the ocean so it can live. And this person says, “But, honey, you’ve got all these other starfish on the beach. I mean, what about them? You didn’t really make a difference.” And she said, “Well, I did for that one starfish.” And, I mean, those little acts … I mean, whether it’s kindness to others or kindness to the planet, I mean, they all have an impact, I think.
Mike:
Well, anybody in my family knows I’m like this, but I think one of my number one pet peeves in public, things that you can notice of people’s behavior, is littering. And the reason is … I’m like, “You lazy SOB. Throw the crap in your car and take it to your trash can when you get home.” We don’t see it on the highway, but you see some idiot going down the highway, and he throws his bag or his cup out, and you’re like, “Are you kidding me?” And you know their car’s probably a wreck anyway. You know what I’m saying?
But I’m always … Everybody in my house knows that I keep my car pretty neat. But down on the floorboard on the passenger side, that’s where I throw my trash. And the moment I have a chance, that’s when the next stop I have or if I come back home or whatever … It never gets beyond one, two, three items because I pick it up the moment I get back home. But that’s my little … I just throw it down on the floorboard, and that’s my reminder. I’m picking that up.
But to your point, it’s the little things, and I like that. That’s awesome.
Mark, you got one that stands out to you?
Mark:
Similar. Similar. Our CEO, a gentleman by the name of Bob Abramowitz … He ran one of the largest bottled water companies in the US. Great, great consumer mindset. And he says what we’re doing is his penance for all the bottled water bottles that he sold. I don’t really have a penance to cover like that.
But, like David, with the background, engineering training, you’re trained to solve the big problems. I’ve had some really great professors looking at this and spelling this out. We all have a legacy we need to leave. We have children. Mine are all grown and out of the house, but the next generation … We can’t leave it worse than what we found it. What we’re doing … We’re solving some pretty big problems in a lot of different ways and [inaudible 00:25:07]-
Mike:
I don’t think we’re asking … I was going to add to that. I don’t think we’re asking … We’re not asking people to spend more money in order to solve a problem. I actually asking … And I do always think the economic factor has to come into play.
Mark:
It does.
Mike:
It can’t be … You can’t ask poor people or people struggling or whatever to do more when there’s an opportunity that like this. I think your formats are competitive and leave enough margin for a guy make money.
Mark:
And it only works if there’s a business model that makes sense. If it makes dollars, it makes sense.
Mike:
And I think that’s part of the engineering, right? That’s part of the engineering. You’ve got to figure-
Mark:
Absolutely.
Mike:
… out how to make it beneficial to everybody.
Mark:
Absolutely.
David:
Well, what Mark’s boss tells him all the time … Bob says, “Mark, we got to be green without the green premium.” I mean, that’s the key-
Mark:
And we are.
David:
And that’s what we are. But I also look at … Maybe some of your guys like to say, “Hey, I could get some mats in and do my part.” I’d like to see them asking the tire reps who come in, “How much of the truck loads of tires you’re pulling out of here do you guys get and rework back into new tires I’m buying?” because they can do more.
And right now, there’s an opportunity for the tire OEMs to pull material, like we’re producing, into their manufacturing to develop new tires using some of this end-of-life tire polymer that we’ve created. I mean, that helps make the circle complete when that starts happening in a big way. And it’s not right now.
Mark:
And Mike, we started with the summit, the Traction Summit. And just listening, it was a small group. What? 100-ish people? Intimate. Got to talk to people closely. Got to hear what they’re saying without a really big audience. And I think there’s a lot of frustration where tires go to die now. I think there’s a lot of people who are processing them just looking for a better place.
I think the tire companies are interested in putting it back into their product, but it’s taking them a long time to do it, and they’re being cautious correctly. And I think the industry is ripe for solutions like ours, and there aren’t enough companies like ours doing what we’re doing. And we encourage it. I think the more people trying to find a solution, the better off. The market’s plenty big enough, and there’s plenty enough raw material for it to go around.
Mike:
Well, and that’s why I’m very grateful that you guys came on the podcast. I think this has been very informative for me, but it gives people a good vibe that, hey, something is being done. There is a real tangible outlet that’s working on this and has an opportunity. And if you are making products and can use some of your raw material in there, please give these guys a call.
And if you’re a retailer, and you’re carrying floor mats in all your stores, why not carry the recycled ones? It’s a tire, basically, and we just mold it into a floor mat. Let’s make it happen, and put your name on it.
Mark:
Welcome. Welcome.
David:
We’d be honored to supply them. You go to the ones you see at Walmart. Those are from China on the rack. I mean, this is a Made-in-America product, which is another important facet to this thing.
Mike:
I think that’s very important. And I love that fact because, for Americans to think, “Hey, my tires could be getting cycled through this process.” Maybe not. But the reality is I know that American tires are coming through this process and that these products I’m seeing or hearing about are coming through this process. This is awesome. And it’s staying right here in the USA just cycling. That’s a cool thing. Very cool, guys.
Mark:
Well, thank you, Mike. We appreciate the opportunity to share our story with your audience.
Mike:
Well, thank you guys for being part of the Gain Traction podcast. It’s been awesome.
David:
Super fun, Mike. Thank you.
Mike:
Good. We’ll have you back for an update one day.
Mark:
That would be wonderful. Thank you.
Mike:
Awesome. To our listeners, thank you for being part of the podcast. As usual, we are very grateful for you. If you would like to recommend a guest to me, please e-mail me at [email protected]. ‘Til next time, be safe, be grateful, and have a great day.
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