Steering Western Canada’s Tire Landscape With James O’Reilly of Trail Tire

James O’Reilly, the Vice President of Trail Tire, is a second-generation tire industry professional with 23 years of experience. With much of his career spent in wholesale, James has navigated the industry waters, inheriting his passion for the business from his father, who clocked in 43 years. He played competitive golf with dreams of turning pro but found his true calling in the tire industry. James has been instrumental in Trail Tire’s growth, overseeing the expansion to 63 stores and the addition of a digital e-commerce division. His leadership style emphasizes relationships, strategic partnerships, and adapting to change, which have been integral to Trail Tire’s success in Western Canada.

In this episode…

The tire industry in Western Canada is a dynamic and evolving market. How does one company navigate growth and expansion in this competitive landscape?

According to James O’Reilly of Trail Tires, the company has experienced significant growth since its inception in 2019, expanding from six corporate stores to 63 stores across Western Canada. This growth has been achieved through a combination of strategies: acquiring existing businesses, partnerships with existing dealers, forming relationships with established dealers, and organic expansion.

On this episode of Gain Traction, James joins Mike Edge to chat about his journey in the tire industry, Trail Tire’s growth strategy, the importance of relationships in business, and the company’s approach to balancing corporate and associate stores. They also discuss Trail Tire’s brand portfolio, their commitment to supporting their dealers, and James’ personal insights on leadership and self-improvement.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

• [1:47] James O’Reilly’s transition from the golf pro dream to tire industry leader
• [3:47] Why effective sales techniques are vital in the tire business
• [6:40] The expansion strategy that aligns Trail Tire’s growth with market demands
• [10:34] The role of a balanced product portfolio in Trail Tire’s success
• [16:08] How Trail Tire cultivates trust and community among its dealers
• [20:07] Books James has found valuable for self-improvement
• [23:00] James’ movie recommendation for all entrepreneurs

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• James O’Reilly on LinkedIn 
• Trail Tire
• Mike Graber on LinkedIn
• Green Lights by Matthew McConaughey
• Ray Kroc
• Mike Edge on LinkedIn
• Tread Partners

Quotable Moments:

• “I liked the people — I had a ton of guys I looked up to in the business that were a little bit older than me, that had successful careers.”
• “When you look back on the relationships, they’re the biggest thing.”
• “We grow as the business allows us to grow, ensuring it makes sense with our strategy and supports our dealers.”
• “The last thing you want to do is sign somebody on board and then suddenly, you buy a store within their area.”
• “It’s all tied into the partnership, we’re really lucky with the dealers we have.”

Action Steps:

1. Focus on building strong relationships within your industry. Relationships can become the backbone of business sustainability and opportunities for growth.
2. Be open to change and diversification within your business strategy. Flexibility in business practices allows for adaptation to market changes and can lead to profitability.
3. Develop a carefully curated product portfolio that aligns with your business’s strategic goals. A focused selection can streamline operations and enhance brand strength.
4. Cultivate long-term partnerships by prioritizing trust and clear communication. Building lasting connections with associates can bring stability and foster a community-driven business model.
5. Invest in continuous learning and self-improvement, both personally and professionally. Embracing knowledge and new perspectives can fuel innovation and personal growth, ultimately benefiting leadership and business development.

• Gain Traction
• Gain Traction Podcast
• James O'Reilly
• Mike Edge
• Trail Tire

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to the Gain Traction podcast, where we feature top automotive entrepreneurs and experts and share their inspiring stories. Now let’s get started with the show.

Mike:

Hello folks. Welcome to the Gain Traction podcast. I am Mike Edge, your host. Today’s guest is James O’Reilly, Vice President of Trail Tire with 63 stores in Western Canada. But before we begin, this podcast is brought to you by Tread Partners, the leading digital marketing agency in the tire and auto repair space from multi-location operations that have anywhere from five to hundreds of shops. Why work with Tread? To put it simply because they know the industry and they can make your digital marketing more predictable and more profitable. They save multi-location shops thousands of dollars because they know how to optimize and maximize your budget. They specialize in business to consumer tires and auto repair services in the digital marketing space. They are a partner, not a vendor. Why wait? Find out more at treadpartners.com.

So you guys know that I like to give a shout-out to previous guests. Recently, I had the benefit of interviewing Mike Graber, President and CEO of Toyo Tire USA. He’s just a great conversationalist and Toyo just has a solid man at the top. It’s just a fun interview. Mike’s a very likable guy. I encourage you to listen to the podcast. So without further delay, James O’Reilly, welcome to the Gain Traction podcast.

James:

Thanks for having me, Mike. Super happy to be here to talk about the journey at Trail Tire.

Mike:

Man, I’m glad we connected. I’m excited to let the audience know who Trail Tire is. You guys have 63 stores up there, but let’s back up a little bit before we talk about Trail and let’s talk about you personally. You’re second generation in the tire business, right?

James:

Yes, I am. Yeah, so I’ve been in the business for 23 years. My father was in the business for 43 before he retired. He actually still works part-time for us two days a week delivering tires just to keep himself busy.

Mike:

Just can’t give it up, right?

James:

He can’t give it up. And I talk to him every day real quickly just to touch base as to what’s going on. But both of us spent our entire careers on the wholesale side, never retailed, but have enjoyed every minute of it. Yeah, so he retired in 2012 and I’ve been in it my entire life, basically started working 23 years ago in it for sure.

Mike:

Now I always like to ask these guys that are second, third generation, did you know you wanted to do it or did you try to go explore something before and then come back, that type thing?

James:

That’s a good story. So I grew up in Vernon, BC which is in kind of the heart of the Okanagan Valley. So grew up playing golf competitively, high school golf team. I had a passion being a golf pro or selling golf clubs and traveling around and playing golf. Obviously it was a passion of mine. But an uncle who’s been a mentor of mine, I kind of sat down with him after high school, and he was a partner, he owned part of a golf course in Calgary Alberta, and he is like, “Look, there’s nothing against the golf industry, but be prepared to have a suitcase and travel a lot and you’ll have a lot of jobs along the way and it’s only seasonal.” So I was kind of in between high school and college and started working full-time in the tire business and then realized that I liked it.

I liked the people. I had a ton of guys I looked up to in the business that were a little bit older than me that had successful careers. And I just said, what the heck? I’m able to move around and try and climb up the industry and see what I can do. So never looked back, never went back to the golf industry. Still enjoy playing it as much as I can. It’s still a big passion of mine, but the tire industry was for sure my calling and I’m glad I was able to stay in it and have a good career with it.

Mike:

Well, I kind of think tires and golf go well together, at least among the people that I’ve encountered, right?

James:

Yeah, it’s true. They do. We have long winters up here in the north, so it is very seasonal for us. So our shorter summers, you try to get out there and play when you can. But with my job I travel a lot all across Western Canada and I get to meet a lot of people and sometimes golf gets tied into that for sure.

Mike:

That’s awesome. So as you progressed in the industry, what did you find out that you liked most about it?

James:

Literally when you talk about starting from the ground up, I started sweeping the floors, unloading tires, picking tires, delivering tires. It was really kind of when I was on the inside sales side of things, I really took a knack for taking care of customers and building relationships over the phone. And at that time, everything I’d kind of done in the industry was kind of more operationally based and I’m like, maybe I’ll go into the operations side of it. But I spent two years on the inside sales side and really liked building relationships and taking care of customers.

So when the first opportunity came, the company I had worked for at the time, they didn’t have a lot of openings in the sales side. It was a long time company in Western Canada, Remington Tire, and there just wasn’t a lot of sales jobs that were available. And then one opened up in Vancouver Island, which required me to move from the Okanagan and I jumped all over it at 22 years old. So I was probably a bit young, but at the same time learned along the way and it was a good opportunity. And that’s kind of when the sales side of things kicked in and I knew that I wanted to be on the sales and marketing side of things.

Mike:

And it is fun on the sales side. I mean you and I on prepping for this call, I think we both love the people of the industry.

James:

Yeah. The relationships, one of the things when you talk about my dad and the business for so many years, I look back to when I ask him what he looks back on and the relationships are the biggest thing. I mean, he’s 72 years old now and he’s got a customer from Southern Alberta that vacations up here in the summertime. He started selling tires to him in 1973 and they had lunch last week, my mom and him and his wife and my dad. So I mean, that’s a long time and it all started-

Mike:

That’s a long relationship, man. That’s awesome.

James:

For sure. Yeah, and the relationship side of things for me is the biggest and most important part of it. It’s definitely not transactional for me, it’s relationships, being strategic with my customers.

Mike:

Wow, that’s awesome. So you got to Trail Tire. Tell us about Trail, where you started with Trail and then where you’re at today. We want to understand the tire market in Western Canada, and you guys are obviously a big player there.

James:

Yeah, for sure. So obviously a few jobs along the way. A lot of change in Western Canada. M&A hit really hard here in 2012 and there was a lot of changes. So in mid 2019, I decided to go back and finish up school and resign from the company that I was working for and got together with a mentor of mine, Alan Ambrosia, and we started talking and he had six successful stores, second generation in Edmonton, Alberta, and we just started shooting ideas around as to what it could look like. And the next thing you know, he already had a plan in place as to what he wanted to do, and I had a plan kind of for what I wanted to do. And we started from there and got together in kind of late August 2019.

And we had six corporate stores, a couple of associates that he had already been dealing with before. And then we got into distribution, opened up a 40,000 square foot warehouse. At the same time, tried something completely different that I’ve never done before, and that’s jump into the e-com world. And we started tirewarehouse.ca. So when you look at our company, our group of companies, we’ve got Trail Tire Auto Centers is our retail banner program. We have Trail Tire Supply, which is our wholesale division, and then we’ve got tirewarehouse.ca, which is our e-com division as well. So there’s two companies under the umbrella.

Mike:

And all the while you didn’t feel busy enough and you developed a total of 63 stores right now, right?

James:

Yeah, so it was a bit of an odd time. 2019, my wife and I made the move and our son Ryder, we made the move to Edmonton for a short time to get this company up and going and then Covid hit. So without obviously having solid ownership, it was a bit scary, but obviously the guys I knew I wanted to go work for it was we were good. So we kind of put our foot on the gas and got out and met with some amazing dealers that wanted to be a part of the program and part of the vision. And we kind of started from there.

And then a quick acquisition in Calgary, we partnered up with the Blaskin family that had been in the Calgary market for 40 years and that came with the distribution center and six corporate stores as well. And then we kind of just expanded it from there. We opened up in the Okanogan Valley, which is in British Columbia. We had about 10 stores join up and then just fast-forward five years, it’s 63 stores and six warehouses and an amazing group of people that we work with.

Mike:

You got to have an amazing group to grow like that and continue to feel confident what you’re going to do. So one of the things I think me and you talked about was your growth plan is not like a strategy that you’re just trying to blanket an area and take off, but it all has to make sense with what your distribution and connectivity with the stores that are somewhat within certain radius, I guess.

James:

Yeah, absolutely. We’re in no rush. So I mean, basically our strategy is to not grow too fast, so it’s got to completely make a lot of sense with everybody, all the decision makers in the company kind of thing. And we grow as the business allows us to grow. So we just opened up a distribution center in Northern Alberta, in Grand Prairie, it’s not been a hotbed for other distributors, but it made sense for us market share wise and we’ve got some amazing dealers up there. So we took the jump.

Whereas in Vancouver we haven’t quite opened yet there. It’s an expensive place to open up and our market share is slowly growing there. So at a certain point in time, we’ll open there, but we’re not going to open there just to say, Hey, we have a dot on the map, look at us, kind of thing. So we take our time and it’s got to make sense and obviously it’s got to accommodate the dealers that we have there and then that’s kind of how we make the decisions on where to grow.

Mike:

What is the ratio percentage between tires and service on average across the 63 stores? Do you guys do a lot of service you feel like compared to…?

James:

Yeah. So we got a really dynamic group of dealers. So we’re very strong in rural where we have some dealers that just do focus on PLT, agricultural and medium truck and no mechanical. We got a handful of dealers that do that. But then when you focus in on our urban stores, we’re like 55, 60% mechanical and they just focus on PLT. A 19.5 is the biggest tire that we do in a lot of our urban stores. And then we had a partner come on in 2023, Brad Kirk, who’s got 20 stores, they’re very large, well-known name in Western Canada. So they’re all now Trail Tires and they’re OTR, mining, egg, mechanical, PLT, there’s nothing they don’t do kind of thing. So it’s very dynamic as far as what everybody does, but predominantly wise, very strong in mechanical and PLT.

Mike:

That makes sense. What about brands? What are your major brands that you guys, and are your brands pretty consistent across all the [inaudible 00:12:08], tire brands?

James:

Yeah, that’s a good question. Yeah, for sure. So we’re not a distributor that collects brands, we can’t, we just don’t have the size of the boxes. So although we may carry a brand, we may just be focusing on one or two patterns within that brand. So we got a long history with Bridgestone, Firestone, Michelin and Toyo.

Mike:

Hey, Bridgestone wouldn’t have anything to do with Bridgestone golf with you, would it?

James:

Yeah, no, it definitely doesn’t. But they actually have a golf podcast now that I listen to the Odd Time Bridgestone. But yeah, so those are kind of the majors, Cooper, and then we have a strong partnership with Kumho Tire as well. And then in the value segment, pretty proud of the partnership that we have with Omni, which is Radar Tires. So we’ve got that throughout Western Canada in the value segment and then a couple others. It just like the days of collecting brands, and when you look at your product portfolio page and you’ve got 25 brands, it doesn’t work for us. So we’re really strategic in the brands that we bring on. It’s got to make sense with our merchandising program and then obviously how we go to market.

Mike:

Makes sense. So if I’m a dealer out there and they happen to tune into Gain Traction and they’re listening to this podcast and they think they’re somewhat within the region and they’re curious to know more, what would they do? What’s the best way for them to get in touch with you guys?

James:

Yeah, the biggest thing is I guess call me, I kind of oversee the associate dealer program. We’ve had dealers reach out to us through our website, but the easiest way is to reach out to me via email. It’s James J-A-M-E-S dot O’Reilly O-R-E-I-L-L-Y at trailtire.com. And then we kind of just start the process from there. We always like just to get together to sit down, to get to know each other and just listen to the dealer’s journey. And that’s actually my favorite part of the job is sitting down with a dealer and just talking about how they started up. Especially if they’re second or third generation, I can listen to that stuff for hours, but just mainly listen to their journey and what they see their five and 10 year plan is.

And then we just talk about who we are and if it’s a fit for either side then we’re pretty excited to take the next steps. And then we’ve got a business development manager that’s kind of our boots on the ground that tries to go see the dealers on a regular basis as well, just to talk about other things that maybe aren’t tire focused, whether it’s digital vehicle inspections, financing, retail promotions that are going on and whatnot. So we try to keep the communication up as best as we can with our current and existing dealers.

Mike:

That’s awesome. One of the things that you mentioned, so you guys have 35 corporate stores, 28 associate banner programs, but you’re really trying to grow the banner program. I mean, that’s the real incentive. And then your commitment to these folks is that you’re not trying to see them develop a market or be in a market and then you’re not coming back and putting a corporate store even close by. I mean, that’s not the objective. You’re really trying to make them continue to be successful in the market they’re in.

James:

Yeah, and that’s a question we get asked all the time is if they join, will there’ll be a corporate store? And so for us, we’re not in a hurry to grow the corporate stores. It’s got to make sense. And at the same time, there is no difference between a corporate and associate. So we’re there to support their business. We give them the geography that they need to be successful, and that’s all transparent from the beginning.

So if we’re going to sign somebody in a rural town, we’ll never have a corporate store there. If we sign somebody in an urban center where we already have a few stores, we try to make sure that we are all good with the geography that they have in their servicing area and that we have. The last thing you want to do is have somebody sign on board and then all of a sudden we buy a store that’s within their area. That’s kind of the last thing we do. So the big thing too there is communication with the dealers is making sure that we understand their expectations. So stuff like that doesn’t happen and that they’re fully aware and they can trust us as time goes on.

Mike:

Perfect. Is there anything else that you would want to address to, I mean, assuming that there’s an associate banner opportunity out there, somebody listening that, is there a question that I should be asking you that they might be thinking in their head right now?

James:

Yeah, I think the big thing is how we differentiate, and that’s always a question that I get asked. Because we had a long history with a lot of the dealers that have become Trail Tires and the relationship and the partnership is there. But outside of our people, our dealers and our strategy, it’s just really understanding where that dealer wants to go and whether it’s they want a heavy investment in digital and they’re over the days of having billboard signs and flyers going around.

But the biggest thing I would say to the dealers that may be listening or have questions is just really have a plan and know where your business wants to go. And then we would just sit down and have a conversation as to what their goals and what their strategy is and if it’s kind of a fit. But all of our dealers that we have are long-term, which is good. I mean, we definitely not interested in signing somebody that’s going to be for sale in six months. So it’s people that want to be a part of the long-term strategy and want to make an investment in the brand.

It’s a big commitment to a dealer to change signs and change things, the day-to-day operations. So just a strategy for being around and being open to change for sure. Just because you sold X, Y. Z tire for 20 years and that’s what your dad sold, and that’s what’s just easy, being open to change as far as a merchandising program that could obviously most importantly make you more profitable and relevant in these changing times. So being open to change is another thing I would advise.

Mike:

To me, it feels like it’s an invitation to be part of a family. They decide that they want to be in this family and they pick up, in a sense, the surname, the last name, whatever, and you guys are accepting them in. But you’re also providing a lot of tools that benefit their business in the long run that maybe could help remove some headaches for them. There’s safety in numbers, right, collectively. Is that a good way to phrase that?

James:

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean the best part about bringing new dealers on too is learning new ideas and what they bring to the table, what works in their business as well.

Mike:

That’s a great point.

James:

We have the playbook that we have, but it constantly changes, especially as we add new stores on like, well, hey, this is what I do. So we’re always open to new ideas, and we’re not saying exactly what we do is 100% the way it needs to be, but it’s just like, hey, here’s a playbook if this works, and there’s a few things you can pull out of here that improve your business. And then sometimes they come back and say, well, this is currently what I’m doing. We’re like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So let’s tie this into the playbook and run with it kind of thing.

Mike:

I like that.

James:

Yeah, it’s all tied into the partnership. I mean, we’re truly lucky with the dealers that we have, everybody comes to the table with some good ideas. I mean, there’s some dealers that are self-sufficient and just kind of want to be a Trail Tire and go about their day. But we have a large percentage of them, they like to have some input and some ideas and have a seat at the table kind of thing. So our AGMs are really good. It’s good to get everybody together and just share ideas and not so much stare at PowerPoints, but connect face-to-face and talk about old stories and what people are doing today to be successful in their businesses.

Mike:

That’s fantastic. You told me too that you work on self-improvement. I mean you like to think about things to read and whatnot. You had given me two books, you want to highlight those that you like.

James:

Yeah, I got a few, but yeah, the couple that we had talked about previously was Ride of a Lifetime by Bob Iger. He’s a former CEO, actually he’s back in, for Disney. I enjoyed reading about his leadership style. The big thing with him was his structure. He is just day-to-day, very regimented guy, and just really open, talked about how listening was important. So that’s what I got out of him. And just the structure as to how he sets up companies. Although he was a corporate CEO, I’ve watched a number of interviews with him and just his strategy, his business sense would be like you’re just talking to him, one-on-one kind of thing. So I highly recommend that book, an easy read.

And then second’s kind of more on the personal side was Green Lights by Matthew McConaughey. It was a great book to read. What attracted me to that book was just personal development and just being a good person. He is a positive guy. I was a new father at the time when the book came out, and it’s probably one of the fastest books I’ve ever read, I’m a slow reader, so it was a really good book. But those are two of my favorites that I recommend.

Mike:

That’s awesome. Well, that’s funny you say you’re a slow reader because I am. And so I always find it’s a gamble. If I pick up a book and I’m a slow reader, then it’s a gamble whether I’m going to like it or not. And I don’t get through them fast. Whereas my daughter, I mean, she’ll read three books in a week and they’re all in the hundreds of pages and she just knocks them out. And she’s a fast reader and it’s extremely frustrating. She can go back and read a book over and over and it’s like re-watching a movie for her. She just enjoys it. For me, and I love reading, but I know my time commitment’s just different. I just don’t read fast.

James:

For sure.

Mike:

So the recommendations matter. So I appreciate the recommendations here. Talk to us about, another one we like to talk about on here, favorite movies, give me some more insight of who you are.

James:

I like to watch a lot of movies. We’ll see if this one resonates with any of your listeners. I like classics, but a mainstay in our house every year during the holidays is Christmas Vacation. I’ll probably watch that in December twice.

Mike:

If you don’t like that movie, I can’t help you. I mean, that movie is fantastic.

James:

Absolutely.

Mike:

There’s so many parts in that movie that I love. I mean from Cousin Eddie in the grocery store with his list, he already had it ready, to one of my favorite lines when he shows up in the yard and Chevy’s being emotional hugging everybody and then he realizes he’s hugging on Eddie, and he goes, “You surprised?” And he says, “I wouldn’t be more surprised if my head was sewn to the carpet.” I love that one.

James:

Yeah, that’s a good one. My buddies and I, even in the summer when we’re golfing, we’ll throw in quotes from that movie. So it never gets old and I plan on watching that one for many years to come. So I had to throw that one in there just because it’s a classic.

Mike:

Absolutely.

James:

And then on the business side, The Founder, the bio on Ray Kroc from McDonald’s and the book, actually, I recommend them both. I watched the movie first and it was amazing. I just really liked, obviously the story, how things got started. Obviously it was a bit cutthroat through the movie and what he had to do to be successful, but the book is actually better. So I recommend both of those.

Mike:

Oh, yeah. He’s pretty callous. There’s no doubt about it. It’s almost like, whoa. But the one scene that was intriguing to me in that was when he was struggling and he had 30 some odd locations, but he couldn’t figure out why he wasn’t making money. He’s at the bank and the guy goes, “Sorry, I overheard your conversation. Can I meet with you?” And then he does. And the guy goes, “You don’t understand what business you’re in.” You remember how he said that?

James:

Oh yeah, for sure. So yeah, obviously the movie kind of took a twist from there. So it was an impressive movie. So that’s a favorite one for me. I mean, I got dozens, but that sticks out.

Mike:

What’s impressive, whether you like Ray Kroc or not, what’s impressive about his ability to see something and then just made that connection. And when he decided that it was it, it was it. I mean, he wasn’t going to be stopped. He could see the future basically when he went to that first McDonald’s in California.

James:

Yeah. So it’s a classic and a heck of a story for sure.

Mike:

I love the scene when he orders his first meal just trying it out and the guy goes-

James:

How quick it was.

Mike:

Yeah. He goes, “What do I do with this?” He goes, “You eat it.”

James:

Yeah, eat it.

Mike:

He goes “Where?” He goes, “I don’t know. Your car or picnic table, wherever you want.” It was great.

James:

For sure.

Mike:

Yeah, and I guess that’s probably the way it was. I mean, you’re young enough to remember, well, you just kind expected fast food. I can remember when fast food wasn’t as common, but now it’s on every corner everywhere.

James:

Oh yeah, for sure.

Mike:

Well, I got to tell you, man, it’s been a pleasure having you on this podcast.

James:

No, thank you very much. I listened to a few of your podcasts before. Obviously in Canada I listen to a ton of hockey podcasts, so I try to tie in the odd tire one. They’re starting to become more relevant. There’s a few more of them out there. So I listened to four or five before we get connected, and I just thought it’d be an opportunity to put our story with Trail Tire on the map and just talk a little bit about Western Canada in case some of your listeners don’t know a whole lot about it. And it’s been a fun ride, and we’re looking forward to continue it. And yeah, man, this has been a pleasure getting to know you and talk with you.

Mike:

Absolutely. Well, I’m going to expand on that. I mean, you did reach out to us and you are a perfect candidate for an interview for us, so I’m really glad you did that. And it did allow us to expand into Western Canada. What’s cool about it is that you listen to the podcast, you recognize that this audience just needs to know, hey, we exist out there too. And for us, I want our audience to know, feel free to reach out to me. I can’t guarantee that everybody’s going to be on the podcast, but it’s worth a shot. And if it’s what we feel like that our listening base is telling us they want to hear, then we’re open to it. So thanks for reaching out, James. I really do appreciate it.

James:

Yeah, my pleasure.

Mike:

And so folks, before I close, I do want to give a big shout-out to S&S Tire, based in Lexington, Kentucky happy 50th anniversary to those guys. It’s a great company with great people. I look forward to their anniversary party and appreciate the invitation, and I look forward to seeing some old friends. So to all our listeners, as you know, thank you for being part of this podcast. We are grateful for you. If you would like to recommend a guest to me, please reach me at [email protected]. Till next time, my podcasters, be safe, be grateful, and have a great day.

Announcer:

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